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NATO Attacks Pakistan, What Next?

|General Discussion|: NATO Attacks Pakistan, What Next?

|GD 01| Topic: After the US attacks do u really think Pakistan should continue it’s  war against terrorism.. Is it more like american war for oil,coal,water,nuclear assets?

Question was raised Naubahar Ameen Rafi

Participants:
Nur Muhammad( A Social & Human Rights Activist)
Sajid I barcha ( A critical thinker and student)
Jibran Hayat ( Student FAST-NU)
Imtiaz Ali (Student LUMS)
Irshad Malick(Student NUST EME)
Hajat Chand( A leftist)

  • Jibran Hayat War on terror is nothing but a game of new world order for this century

  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?@ if u can’t beat them join them.. should we surrender or fight.. where we r exactly going..

    Wednesday at 15:33 · 
  • Imtiaz Ali Cooperation with more respect, regard, and mutual accommodation. In countering terrorists option of Dialogue along with economic & social measures must be used to separate out criminals from loyal 3 million tribesmen of FATA. PAK should firmly convey its own way of dealing with terrorists. No more free riding on sovereignty of Pak will be accepted. A clear message should go to WDC tat Pakistan is neither Somalia neither Iraq.Its a nuclear country and home to 180million people and junction of three nuclear states Russia, PR China & India.

    Wednesday at 15:33 · 
  • Jibran Hayat Death of 24 Brave soldiers on the check post By Nato is a brutal and highly irresponsible act, We have bleeded more then any other nation including USA, we have suffered economically and in terms of social security . Now time has come that Pakistan should take firm stance on violating the sovereignty of our country

    Wednesday at 15:39 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Imtiaz Ali cooperation and friendship are terminologies which are not present in american dictionary.. despite the fact that pakistan is playing it’s role against terrorism but the american attitude is giving us a clear message that they have different intentions.. no country has suffered more than pakistan due to terrorism and fight against terrorism .. see where our economy graph is standing today. our education , health , social security every thing is at stake . do u really think we can afford war against terrorism any more..

  • Imtiaz Ali ?-Well, we are in a catch-22 situation, neither we can leave nor we can continue like this. So, we need to change the way we are encountering terrorism instead of relinquishing entire campaign coz we do have criminal elements in Tribal areas particularly and in all other area generally.

    Wednesday at 15:45 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar r Imtiaz Ali America has never tried to reach the root cause of militancy in tribal areas.. i think poverty is one of the major reasons which has made them militant .. we have to change mindset and that can be done through dialogues, conciliation and education and not by drone attacks.. america is only creating hatred for itself in tribal areas.. if u kill their sons,daughters , sisters and brothers, wat u expect from them in response..definitely they will react and react hard..they will take weapons in their hands and there is no other option for them..

    Wednesday at 15:58 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Mustafa Kamal Sajid I. Barcha Badar Muneer Nur Momad comment plz

    Wednesday at 15:59 · 
  • Nur Momad If you don’t crush the Taliban and its affiliates, they are going to take over the country, with the help of radical elements within the establishment.It is Pakistan’s own war for survival.

  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, we know that establishment even never let Islamist parties to come into power how come the Militant groups going to take over the Pakistan and figure of these group quite in less numbers

    Wednesday at 16:04 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?@ then it’s war b/w pakistan and taliban.. wat’s america doing there..

    Wednesday at 16:04 · 
  • Nur Momad Pakistan army feeds on US money sir. It, also, has to serve the interests of USA. It’s a double game.

    Wednesday at 16:07 · 
  • Nur Momad ?@Jibran – Revolution/rebellion does not need millions of people. History is a testimony to that.

    Wednesday at 16:07 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha Don’t fool yourself, Pakistan had always harbored and petted Taliban. Before 9/11, only Pakistan and Saudi Arabia officially recognized Taliban regime. Pakistan was in peace before 9/11 because Pakistan was the bed-time partner with these “bad guys”. All those who have slowly become sympathetic towards Taliban have probably memory issues, go pick the papers from late 1990′s to see who you are dealing with. A NATO strike on Pakistani soldiers is enough to think WOT is not our fight, but how about thousands of soldiers killed so far by the militants, that is not enough to convince you that this is actually your war?

    Wednesday at 16:08 · 
  • Jibran Hayat Do we have any chance of Revolution in our country secondly rebellion cannot be made successful in current scenario until have international assistance , available just like for Libyan rebels , it cannot survive without external assistance

    Wednesday at 16:10 · 
  • Nur Momad ?Jibran Hayat - There is enough dissent across the country. International “help”, which I abhor, would come unannounced. Have you heard of the term India-backed-Taliban? Or the RAW-sponsored Baluch fighters?Rebellion is already underway in Balochistan. A strong nationalist voice in KPK can help revive the slogan of “Pakhtunistan”, specially because the Pakhtuns think that they have been used as proxies by the state, maligning their identity.

    Wednesday at 16:13 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha, agreed to the facts that Pakistan had relations with Taliban and their regime . But things have changed now its not in the interest of Pakistan to support them within Pakistan. Secondly Pakistan is sovereign state how come they attack and Kill our soldier like this ,are you comparing Taliban and Nato , Pakistan is cooperating with Nato and being stabbed in Backed quite several time , what are they doing on Afghanistan side with only 8 check post is that sufficient enough

    Wednesday at 16:15 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha Today Jamat ud Dawa has declared to make Pakistan a Taliban State, and this is the same JUD that Pakistan considers a “charity organization”.

    Wednesday at 16:15 · 
  • Nur Momad Whether the rebellion succeeds or not is a different question. Meirits and demerits of such an eventuality is also debatable. Personally, I am not in favour of Pakistan’s Balkanization. It has severe implications for all of us.

    Wednesday at 16:16 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Sajid I. Barcha according to Nur Momadbhai pakistan army feed on US money.. pakistan army is then paid army by american and fighting for america not for pakistan.. and wat pakistani government has given to tribal areas ..only drone attacks.bullets,missiles ,, our attitude has made them militant… poverty has made them militant. war itself is a biggest problem and terrorism is again a big problem.. how can be problem solution for another problem..???

    Wednesday at 16:16 · 
  • Jibran Hayat What about the Red corridor of in India that stretches from north to south covering 920000 sqr km. Naxalites of India are far more dangerous the and greater in number then taliban . Does that India going to divided into peace , yes there are as you mentioned but not on a mass level that can levered against the state. For instance there are people even in Israel who donot support their jewish state .

    Wednesday at 16:20 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Ameen Rafi Naubahar: It does appear like Pakistan Army doesn’t really believe in eliminating Taliban. Tribal belt was deliberately kept in “stone age” over the decades because that was our “ware-house” to produce Jihadis which we would then secretly export into J&K. (Remember how Jihad & Militancy was promoted on PTV? Remember a drama named Angaar Waadi?). The country is at this point because of Pakistan Army, the das jamaat pass Generals make your policies which require in-depth understanding, you are bound to be where you are.

    Wednesday at 16:21 · 
  • Nur Momad ?Ameen There are interest groups within each organization. How else could the centres of ISI be attacked/destroyed, the headquarters of SSG, the GHQ, PNS Mehran … and the list goes on.These are the elements within the establishment who consider the Army, at large, as an “anti-Islam” force.Jibran - The Indian state has a major issue because of the Naxalites/Maoists. But so far only the Police is dealing with them. Army has not been called in to tackle the situation. Pakistan is not as big as India.

    If 2 out of the 4 provinces of Pakistan rebel, the situation would be uncontrollable. But if 4 out of the 25 Indian states rebel, the situation, however, worst, will not result in division of the country.

    Wednesday at 16:24 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Sajid I. Barcha so u can’t really blame taliban .. u have feed them for ur interests and now u r killing them..

    Wednesday at 16:26 · 
  • Nur Momad There are some Talibans who are militants. Their numbers may be less. But there are millions of ideological Taliban across Pakistan. These are the ones who celebrate murderers as heroes. None of them have guns in their hands, but they have enough ammunition of hatred and bigotry in their minds, to explode at the “right time”.

    Wednesday at 16:27 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha do you really think USA is serious in eradicating the Taliban from Afghanistan , Do you think it has done effective measures against Taliban infact even they are not serious about this terror game, all they want is their play in the region Known as Asia Game

    Wednesday at 16:28 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad we have seen in the past if situation gets really worse against India if it threats us to attack, we have seen how all the factions get united against the Indian threats, even the Taliban get themselves volunteered for services of war if required .

    Wednesday at 16:31 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Nur Momad roots of this ideology are getting stronger and stronger.. how u will change this ideology..

    Wednesday at 16:33 · 
  • Nur Momad Dynamics of the game have changed.But here we are talking about the state-vs-Taliban (many of whom would be funded by foreign forces).Remember, to millions Kayani is a traitor and Osama is the real Shaikh/Ameer-Al-Momineen

    Wednesday at 16:33 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: Let’s assume that USA is not serious in eliminating Taliban, does that Justify Pakistan’s non-serious attitude? It’s us who have to live with these people. If USA pull out of Afghanistan, it will be the same as they did after the so called operation cyclone completed in 80′s. We will be not in a better place then we were in the early 90′s. Pakistan will continue to support these elements within it’s own society as well as in other countries. Unless of course, the whole world finally groups together and corners us.

    Wednesday at 16:34 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, to get into rebellion they need a base , right now they dont have any place then tribel area , and majority of our country men do not support the fascist regime like Taliban. secondly even if they get into a position of rebellion they can be crushed very easily

    Wednesday at 16:34 · 
  • Nur Momad I think otherwise Jibran. The handful of Taliban have kept the Army at their toes during the last 5-6 years. They can attack anywhere with impunity. That’s what has led to the death of over 35,000 people, a large number of them being men-in-uniform.If Gurella war enters the Urban centres, that would mean instant chaos. It is easier to fight them in the barren lands of FATA/WANA. But the situation will be completely different in Urban/settled areas.

    Wednesday at 16:36 · 
  • Nur Momad Operational effectiveness of organized armies has always been lower when dealing with insurgents. That’s why they indulge in heinous crimes against humanity, like what’s going on in Baochistan, to instil fear in the minds of the people and stop them from aiding the insurgents.

    Wednesday at 16:37 · 
  • Nur Momad ?Ameen - There is no short term solution. In the long term, the state needs to secularize, according to the wishes of the founding father, enabling more liberties for minds and hearts, instead of chaining the masses in the abyss of dogmatic living, where fallacies of patriotism and jingoist religiosity reign supreme

    Wednesday at 16:39 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha, now we have a point so its part of strategic depth to have a link with Afghan Taliban , we canot afford to have an enemy at our western border as we have on eastern border. USA will going to leave Afghanistan and we have live with those insurgents in Afghanistan . Ultimately there will be civil wars for power so Pakistan would like to have government having friendly terms . Because those people are driven by ideology its not easy to crush them , we have to live with them Pakistan canot afford to lose them In Afghnistan , its Pakistan who have live with it not Usa

    Wednesday at 16:41 · 
  • Nur Momad When I said there is no short-term solution, it meant no ‘peaceful solution’. The Army shall, once and forever, rise against the militants. Crush them, if they don’t shun their arms and agree to live in accordance with law

  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad this is more like hide and seek from Taliban as you mentioned not a organized attack with arms having one to one battle , going to take over the state which is unlikely to happen .

    Wednesday at 16:43 · 
  • Jibran Hayat they cannot take the state until have conventional war fare they can only come an attack specific targets just like Naxals of India

    Wednesday at 16:44 · 
  • Nur Momad take-over does not, necessarily, mean establishing a government. It means spreading chaos and becoming the centre of gravity for policy-makers. And, I am afraid, we are already moving in that direction.

    Wednesday at 16:45 · 
  • Jibran Hayat nur Bhai will resume this debate tomorrow take care

  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: Well you have just summarized the general opinion in GHQ. Which is faulted. That also implies that Pakistan believes Afghanistan can never be a free-democracy, that may also mean that Pakistan actually wants Afghanistan to NOT be a free democracy. That is one reason why Pakistan don’t pursue the Haqqani’s, because they are going to be a powerful party in post-US Afghanistan. That basically makes Pakistan a Pro-Taliban-but-Pseud-Ally and thus you should not even be surprised if NATO strikes you. WHY not tell the US and NATO that Taliban are our strategic assets? Why play a dangerous double game?

     

     

  • Nur Momad Do you remember the idea of digging a trench around Islamabad to stop the suicide bombers? What was that telling about the state’s level of being influenced by the Taliban?Moreover, please don’t forget that there are other centrifugal forces who would join the rebellion, for their own benefits. The schism of a rebellion would be fragmented but still unified in one resolve, that is getting rid of the state, which they consider “oppressive” and “exploitative”.

  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha points you raised Indeed must be reflected in our country, but my point is how can you justify the Nato brutality on Pakistan check post , are we not a sovereign country , instead of Apology USA and Nato led forces are blaming Pakistan , this is not happened for the first time about eight times. I cant comprehend how come you favour the attack of Nato just because Pakistan is not going Haqqanies in Afghanistan. what about fuelling of TTP by CIA and Raw , what about supporting the Baloch liberation movement . Why donot you comprehend that Both sides stretch their strategic interest through proxy , its not just Pakistan every country do so , not our security establishment only, what about Raymon Davis he was assisting Militants in Pakistan , infact he was trying to smuggle some nuclear stuff to Militants so that later Pakistan be blamed as Nuclear unstable where Nuclear arms can go in the hands of Extremist groups. Extremism must dealt politically and militarily if necessary. No question about that but blaming the failure of Usa and Nato led forces in Afghanistan is a lame excuse what are they doing in there with superior technology

    Thursday at 02:38 · 
  • Jibran Hayat Jihadi movement in Pakistan and Afghanistan was a joint venture while fighting soviet, Now just Blaming Pakistan for this is foolish and irrational. After the war with soviet, USA left the whole Jihadies without rehabilitation , how many criminals were brought there to fight the soviet , USA and Pak armed those extremist and criminal and Mujahdeen . After math of this joint venture was a mess for Pakistan . Because ultimately we have to live with them . How can we just afford to cut they away so easily , even the USA might coundnt able to win the wars with Nato forces , How come you think Pakistan can eradicate the Militants. Secondly its an Ideology we have to dealt it takes decades . Just like Tamil rebels in India . see how are they now reconciling with the state. Hot pursuit is not the ultimate solution ,we need to talk to them we need to sit on table for peace and stability , but if you chose a war with nothing is lost in their sides they are fighting for generations

    Thursday at 02:47 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, that is something quite hypothetical that the rebellion forces would unite for a united resolve . who is going to unite those forces or non state actors, our security establishment always successful in crushing al those anti state tendencies , Secondly terror bomb blast from taliban doesnot mean they are against the State rather nature of the state. But we know for the fact that apart from general sympathies there is nothing such a pragmatic support for Islamist

    Thursday at 02:52 · 
  • Hajat Chand Hunzai Talibans are not onlypresent in Wana Wazeeristan
    they Live within the Brains of the the ethinic people living in pakistan
    it’s due to the preaching of theor gurooes

    Thursday at 03:41 · 
  • Hajat Chand Hunzai the main root of evil is the curtain of religion which is being warped on it by the influential religious figures.
    i bet if these figures come out and make their mind neutral towards everyone, if they accept and respect diversity it’s really gonna work, we will never need US NATO Even ARmy

    Thursday at 03:44 · 
  • Nur Momad Jibran1. I am talking of radical elements within the establishment who support these “Islamist” forces. If you consider the “establishment” to be unified, then, imho, you are mistaken.2. Arguably the most popular leader of Pakistan, Mian Nawaz Sharif wants to become the “Amir-al-Momineen” of the country, by establishing an Islamic emirate . He tabled a resolution to this effect in the assembly not very long ago, but in the late 1990s. That move, which costed him his second stint with power at the hands of foreign governments, speak volumes about the aspirations of his “two-third majority” government, a reflection of his voters’ desires.

    3. The Taliban are not just an anti-America force, they are adherents of a particular sect, who consider the rest as heretics and qualified-for-death

    4. You are taking things very simplistically. The rebellious forces would fight separately, not under one command (each for its own benefit), seeing the “opportunity” provided by a disintegration of the state.

    (Note: these scenarios are not to herald or wish a doomsday scenario, but an effort to study the future situations, ceteris paribus, from a particular angle. I would like to reiterate that in my opinion, the Balkanization of Pakistan is not going to benefit anyone and thus the state should mend its ways and take real steps to address dissent at the earliest)

    5. The establishment failed to stop the disintegration of the country in 1971. Remember that half of the country’s initial land is no more. Even in 1970, the dear good establishment, as history books narrate, was busy in giving “OK” reports, “nothing to worry”. But then we also see General Niazi handing over his gun to the Indian General, while the establishment was upbeat about its control over the state.

    6. They are against a secular, populist, state. They want their own state and laws, which they may like to name “Pakistan”, but that would not be the state the founder wished.

    Thursday at 04:57 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, i think my points were understood as if i am supporter of such kind of fascist group and extremist. Not at all definitely,.For instance fall of East Pakistan is not because of Islamist groups or extremist group. Indeed our Army has a role in it , But we must remember the fact the Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was not ready to acknowledge the legitimacy of Shiek Mujeb ur Reham to Rule the country. he said ” TM wahan ham Yahan” aftermath of this statement sheik cameup with his agendas of separate homeland. So blaming the security establishment only wont be justified , now about Nawaz sharif yes indeed he tried his best to get it , did he able to secure that title for himself? not at all. Pakistan is in mess by indoctrinating jihadies fanatics in our country and we have to live with it, they are driven by ideology not just mere retaliation against the state it will take time get them in mainstream society. Pakistan is fighting against it on state level but there may be people who sympathizes those extremist groups. My stance is Nato should not have killed our soldiers , we have have bleeded alot .

    Thursday at 06:04 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: I think you have probably incorrectly interpreted what I said. I am not defending NATO attack. I am not even defending Raymond Davis (how did you bring him in). I think both of these events were against Pakistan’s sovereignty. What I was particularly trying to highlight is the apparent failure to acknowledge that Pakistan lost its sovereignty long ago. Some might say in 1958, but let’s ignore that. What I am saying is that if Pakistan Army had eliminated the belligerent elements in these regions, these events wouldn’t have happened. Secondly, nobody complains about thousands of Afghans, Arabs, Chechens, Uzbeks that reside inside Pakistan’s territory without a visa, and carry out attacks on Pakistan as well as Afghanistan. They are too violating the sovereignty. Why isn’t their a kick of same strength towards these belligerent elements as there is towards NATO? The United States & NATO violates Pakistan’s sovereignty in pursuit of other people who have violated Pakistan’s sovereignty before them. This is not a justification of NATO strikes, but take it as a cause or a reason to why these attacks happen.
    The US and NATO kept on saying that Pakistan needs to do more, they insisted OBL is inside Pakistan, but Pakistan always denied, but as things turned out, he was right in the right ventricle of Pakistan’s heart. These may look like justifications if you want to look at them that way, but I am putting them forth as causes and reasons to why our sovereignty is being violated so often. I think the US & NATO don’t even think Pakistan cares about sovereignty, because they have examples ahead of them of people already violating the sovereignty and Pakistan seemingly untroubled by it.

    Thursday at 08:51 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: I think USA committed a fatal mistake at the end of Cold War era, USA needed to do the rehabilitation. I also think, USA is repeating the mistake, and Pakistan is forcing it do so, by pulling its troops out of Afghanistan. Again, the destruction is huge, the opportunities for normal life are zilch in Afghanistan, and the feelings are sore. I think we will return to this place once again in future if you do no completely eliminate this fanaticism. US & NATO cannot do alone, it needs partnership from Pakistan and Pakistan has for a good portion of time been a pseudo-partner in this mission.

    Thursday at 08:55 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha I as a resident of Pakistan consider myself obliged to complain more about what the country that represents me has done. I think that is how everybody should go about in much of life’s business, evaluation must start with introspection, try that for a change.
    USA created Taliban with Partnership with Pakistan. But I consider it a bigger mistake by Pakistan because we had more risks affiliated with it, we were the immediate stakeholders in this game. I complain about Pakistan because they were supposed to protect my interests and they didn’t, I don’t see sense and complaining to US because they weren’t there for my interests.
    I wouldn’t comment about the TTP is fuelled by RAW & CIA because that is not true. That hasn’t been proven and when politicians and certain governors say that they have proofs they are basically lying. Take India and USA to international court if you have any evidence “beyond reasonable doubt”. They US and NATO continuously says you are playing double game, why don’t you take them into international court of law and give a little bird right in their face? Because what qualifies as an “evidence” in Pakistani thinking style is nothing more than a far-fetched assumption. A recent example is how Z. Mirza boasted about having proofs against Altaf Hussain in certain cases, and how easily those “proofs” were rubbished by Scotland Yard as “irrelevant & insufficient”. I think you have been charmed in by a conspiracy theory right there.

    Thursday at 09:09 · 
  • Nur Momad Jibran – that he did not get it the first time does not mean that he would not try, or his ideology has changed.I agree with you that Bangladesh came into being because of the political failures of politicians, the military and the bureaucrats. The division started when Bengali, language of half of the population, was rejected the status of a national language and that of a minority segment (how much population has Urdu as mother-tongue?) was preferred.The murder of thousands of people (35,000 according to Justice Hamood-ur-Rehman Commission and upto 2 million according to Bangladesh govt) by the Pakistan army, aided by the thunder-squad type militant wings of the Jamat-e-Islami, was what led to the ultimate collapse of the state.

    I am also not supporting NATO’s murder of Paksitani troops, but I also reject the murder of innocent Afghanis and Pakistanis at the hands of groups equipped/funded/trained by sections of the establishment.

    We should not be selective in condemnation of vice. It is the same, whether we commit it or them.

    The fundamentalist ideology was easily changed by Turkey. They did not have to live with it. And similar change is possible in Pakistan. In fact, the radicalisation process supported by Zia (the establishment himself) is what led to defacing the essence of this nation, making it a herd of bigots and militants.

    That’s what we are opposing, and not for the sake of personal gains, but because we have a stake in this country, even if just emotional.

    Thursday at 09:14 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad , i think we are very much on the same table, with different perspectives of situation. As you and Sajid mentioned that Nato strikes are not acceptable thats it. Now how to reach to solution for this terror i have different perspective then yours .I dnt believe in using too much force against those groups , its not that simple as if we are going to bomb those tribal areas , and every thing going to settle down. We need to have a strategic planing to bring those fascist and tribal people to mainstream society of our Nation. But completely disowning them now would be complete disaster. they have been very loyal to Pakistan for decades they have guard the Durand line for us since Independence . For them waging War against the state and Usa is jihad because they see both of them as trusted partners of each other. They are a martial race we can not afford to get them completely turned against us. Now its quite clear that Usa and Nato led forces in Afghanistan is complete failure 70 percent of its land is in control of Taliban and allied insurgents groups even after 11 years of wars. Now after widthdrawl those forces will play their cards for power in Afghanistan. we know that Other then Afghan taliban northern alliance has always favoured India over Pakistan their personnel are trained in India , which annoys Pakistan because its see a strategic defence weakness. we can see developments of Kabul dam at river kabul by Indian funding. All these things concern Pakistan security establishment. Coming to your point Sajid I. Barcha do we have any evidence whynot, you may dont give credibility to Pakistan former president Musharraf but I do , his statements on record . for instance what and Indian consulate meant for in Afghanistan ,neither they have indians nor business community ,According to president we have video evidence. Its not just Pakistan every country be its USA , India ,Russia,China , Britain , Germany are trying to use their levers to have their influence in Afghanistan , they want a stack in Game Asia.

    Thursday at 10:01 · 
  • Nur Momad I don’t support bombing of the Tribal areas and neither have I indicated anything like that above. The Lashkars fighting against the Taliban belong to the same race. But you may also be surprised to know that a very large segment of the “Taliban” fighting the state are non-Pashtuns (mostly Arabs, Uzbuks, Chechans and Africans). And these people have not come to the Tribal areas to guard our borders. They have been brought in by segments of the establishment who dream of creating a Caliphate in the region, comprising of Afghanistan, Pakistan, parts of India, Iran, a part of China and several parts of the Central Asian Republics.I think the deep-establishment’s strategic/broader goals need to be understood, to make an informed comment on the situation.Using the Taliban as a dagger against the Afghan people, as protection against perceived threats from India, is yet another folly orchestrated by sections of the state. The strategic-depth doctrine has failed, because the hens have come to the house for roosting, and led to the death of over 35,000 Pakistanis.

    We shall abandon this policy. Make peace with India. Concentrate on provision of food, health, shelter and education to the abysmally deprived large segment of the country, instead of indulging in daydreaming and statecraft at the international level.

    I gave the example of Turkey above. We need a similar deradicalisation of the society, to survive and make this country a land of opportunities for all the citizens.

    Thursday at 10:15 · 
  • Jibran Hayat To make a caliphate region comprising of Countries you mentioned is theory without any concrete evidence. do we really afford a war with China and India both nuclear and powerful states . Why is that only we are held responsible for not having peace in the region . Are we not stabbed in the back by Indian intelligence agencies, how about fall of East Pakistan , no matter what parameters responsible within state but its a fact that India did help the Masses to make it a Independent state. I again quote a person who was infact more informed then any of us that is President Musharraf he said , about the activities of Raw in Baluchistan and Afghanistan. it will be a miracle if we had situation like Turkey. but its a long to go. Peace can be only achieved in region after the solution of Kashmir , whether in favour or against Pakistan.

    Thursday at 10:41 · 
  • Ameen Rafi Naubahar ?Nur Momad Jibran Hayat Sajid I. Barchathanx for ur fruitful discussion.. as this debate is getting heat and heat.. can u all come to any conclusion .. all the readers are really waiting for some conclusive points…

    Thursday at 10:53 · 
  • Nur Momad If you take the words of Musharraf as the the ultimate reality, then I don’t think there can be debates. He is an under-oath soldier, even after retirement, so we should expect him to read the establishment’s lines.It is strange that we don’t pay any heed to the grievances of the Baloch, attributing their struggle for rights to foreign interventionism This tendency gives a safe-passage, clean-chit, to the oppressors who rule this country.If RAW is active in Balochistan, then the establishment should stop it, coz that’s what it is there for.

    What about the role of Pakistan in Khalistan and Naga Land and Chatis Garh, as blamed by the Indians?

    What about the role of Pakistan in Yemen, where former soldiers were sent to crush a populist revolution, to protect the interests of Saudia.

    The arrest of a Brigadier rank officer and many others with him, for connections to Hizb-al-Tahrir, should have served as an eye-opener for Pakistan, vis-a-vis the reality behind the “theory”.

    Thursday at 10:58 · 
  • Jibran Hayat Mushharaf is not ultimate, but a reliable reference , so where are you getting underline meaning of establishment , is that establishment gives briefing to common citizens of Pakistan about the Stregic depth doctrines of the state ………… definitely there would be assistance from Pakistan side but it is something which every establishment of country do, be its Pakistan or India and that what i am stating from the start that every country stretches its interest. Arabs heavily fund Pakistan , and we know how much they have influence in Pakistan through their money to relgio-political setups. And in return they want to their interest to be safe guard which i think quite normal deal between two countries irrespective of what is right or wrong. Dnt we see Usa assisting Israel time an again even after violating all the human rights , how many times we have seen the Massacre of the Palestinians yet Usa is still giving Aid ,Israel gets highest Aid in the world even after brutality against the Muslim in Gaza strip. America is always there to secure the jewish interest , so what is really surprising to Pakistan a overwhelming sunni state securing the interest of saudi Arabia

    Thursday at 11:18 · 
  • Nur Momad So you mean that the activities of Sipah-e-Sahaba, a US funded Wahabi terrorist organization, are “normal”?What about lives of the thousands of Pakistanis who have been killed?What is supreme, statecraft or dignity and protection of the citizens?

    Thursday at 11:21 · 
  • Nur Momad I don’t get briefings from the establishment, but I study neutral analysts, instead of relying on the public-words of an under-oath office. I think you should attend one of General Hameed Gul’s lectures.

    Thursday at 11:23 · 
  • Jibran Hayat Do i support those banned outfits or any other intolerant fascist group of course not but , reality is that saudia Arabia is Holy state for majority of Our country men , irrespective of what Saudi funding is responsible for ,

    Thursday at 11:29 · 
  • Jibran Hayat that is a reality so its always been backed by our establishment and we have to live with majority ,

    Thursday at 11:31 · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: I didn’t quite get you here “do we have any evidence whynot”, please rephrase that for me.
    General Musharraf is now, in his own words, a “chali hui kartoos”. I don’t give General Musharaf’s words any credibility whatsoever, he was the most vocal in denying several things, and time showed how wrong he was. He is, as Nur said, stretching the establishment’s narrative. He needs establishment because without it he is worthless. I think Mushi has done some great things for Pakistan but that is not enough to exempt him from simple skepticism that common sense demands.
    What is wrong with India having a consulate in Afghanistan? I think it’s about time we stop having a delusional fear of India. India has every right to open an embassy or consulate in Afghanistan, just like how Pakistan has a right to open a consulate in, let’s say, Chile.
    I am not denying that there is no Indian involvement in BLA, but once again as I said earlier, it’s Pakistan itself that creates this opportunity for “foreigners” to cease it. Introspection please, what Pakistan has done to Baluch is what Pakistan had done to Bengalis. What India might be doing in Baluchistan is what it did in the then East Pakistan. It’s a shame that Pakistan establishment is again using the same failed tactics it used in Bengal.

    Thursday at 11:44 · 
  • Imtiaz Ali Lets start from basic: First of I am dubious about ISAF campaign in Afghanistan after 9/11 as mere Hunting of OBL & Kayida and run. I think something much bigger is there and Afghanistan has been prepared as monitoring desk for nyboring countries with Nukes & Iran. Secondly, why pak was compelled? I think again we paid price of being nybors to Afghanistan and the geographic location & Ethnic linkages between our Tribals Areas and eastern part of Afghanistan. I am quite confident that Mr Mush Decisions ws not to appease fear of liberal extremists that with a Talib regime in Afghan, we wud have been more radicalized.Infact it was to secure state from any mis-adventurism by Intl Power Machines. And, I believe Pakistan has done to best of its capacities. A great joint campaign of civil & military led to flushing out of militants from SWAT(No, one cares to talk about that cause everyone is busy with carping and saying DO More). And, to mention Taliban Leader Mullah Fazullah is In Afghanistan, why not ISAF & Afghan government is hunting him? Recently, 100s of militants attack Chitral from Aghan side, and on same day NATO fire missiles on same check posts making lives more miserable for our soldiers over there to fight against Taliban? Leme tel If US has guud reasons to mis trust Pakistan we have lot more to not trust them. So, how deal and what to do? what not to do? & How do to is headache of Pakistan. Pakistan better knows ther psyche & Mentality of our tribesmen. Any, military intervention at behest of International Force myt turn 3million tribesmen against state if Pakistan, Imagine what will happen ? I guess, it is time to draw our lines & set a long term strategy cause use of force has been a fail exercise proved by fall of Dhaka.But, dilemma is US wont allow us to deal them in our way, because they are not the ones who have to face the leftover.

  • Imtiaz Ali US wont allow Pak, coz they pay us with civil & military aid. There money is worthy and our lives are worthless. It might be fear of few liberal extremists that without aid Pakistan wont survive, reality is not like that. Ann, NATO attack on Salala Check is I think the decisive point either we will uphold our sovereignty, & national integrity or we will be a proxy state own for an intl power giant forever. I was shocked to read that Mr Obama is reluctant to convey a word of condolence & sorry to Pakistan, yet they expect us to surrender to their every licit & illicit demand.

  • Imtiaz Ali US wont allow Pak, coz they pay us with civil & military aid. There money is worthy and our lives are worthless. It might be fear of few liberal extremists that without aid Pakistan wont survive, reality is not like that. Ann, NATO attack on Salala Check is I think the decisive point either we will uphold our sovereignty, & national integrity or we will be a proxy state own for an intl power giant forever. I was shocked to read that Mr Obama is reluctant to convey a word of condolence & sorry to Pakistan, yet they expect us to surrender to their every licit & illicit demand.

    Thursday at 19:14 · 
  • Imtiaz Ali To augment my argument about US intention on Afghan war, I refer the interview of renown political critic, and MIT Professor Chomsky http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200209–.htm In this interview Chomsky present arguments about US refusal of peaceful alternatives to afghan campaign by majority of Opponents of Taliban & and, even an offer of Taliban regime to hand over terrorists to an impartial third party if US had presented evidences. Also, how US denied judgments of International COurt of Justice and security against it terrorist activites in Haiti, cuba & Nicaragua. So, why not we Pakis mis trust them? why their dint exist respect & regards for US as the countrymen have for china? Is because of Establishment again or policies of US bearing equal share?

    Thursday at 19:24 ·  · 
  • Imtiaz Ali But,dilemma with us as nation is that we are as whole confused & divided on every issue. Every, faction of our society to sell out his version of incidents, Liberals, Radicals, Leftists, Rightists, and many others. Everyone tries to be the best champ of his ideology and accepts that The reality is what he knows abruptly dis regarding others as either ideallists, fanatics are illiterate.

    Thursday at 19:32 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha, do we have any proven evidence about 9/11 . Do we tried for what happened. how it happened with twin towers.Did usa ever shared its evidence with International community .What about weapons of Mass destruction a flat lie in the united nation security council . How is that their defence secretary lied to whole world . Infect after annihilation of Iraq and killing millions of muslims they came up with simple sorry . Do USA and Britain have any credibility after such joint venture . Did ever Pakistan came with such blunt lie like this. Usa economy is based on exporting wars to different regions”Ahrundati roy top 100 thinker” in her article.we give credit to Times, herald , Washington post and many liberal extremist within state and outside state but not ready to give any credit to former president Musharraf .I dnt understand how is that you think that our establishment is some what different entity then our state. establishment works for the deeper interests of the state. Now what about rebels of Libya, how they got assisted by Us and Eu nations , infect rebels were same al Qaeda that were been fought in Afghanistan. How come you dont see the double standards of USA and EU on the crisis of Libyan regime. Who was arming them to fight . I am not a judge or jury to decide what going on. But just blaming Pakistan and establishment is mere ignorance. And even when it comes to Relation with India we are always blamed i am not saying we are saints but labelling us as not responsible for peace is some what mere ignorance . For instance fine our relation with India is strained because of us , what about relations of India with Nepal, what about Bangladesh, What about srilanka , tell me with Whom India is having no dispute , yah i forget to mention China as well

    Yesterday at 00:40 · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Imtiaz Ali, i agree with that as a nation we are divided , and the dilemma even worse is we dont own Our country. Just blaming the country and establishment. Are we not those who sell the their votes for few thousands when elections are near. What about the civil society we have , we dont see a major role civil society for the improvement of our nation.

    Yesterday at 00:45 · 
  • Jibran Hayat most of our liberals and secular in our country seems to be in Imperial camp.

    Yesterday at 00:54 · 
  • Nur Momad ?Jibran on a lighter note, do you want them to be in the camp of Al-Qaeeda and Taliban? :-)

    19 hours ago · 
  • Nur Momad Also, wrt selling votes. Please get real. None of the GBians’ votes is worth a penny for Pakistan, because our votes are irrelevant.Qamar Zaman Kaira, the federal KANA minister had famously said, “Meray liya Chakwal k aik mochi ki ahmiyat shimali illaqu k logu say ziada hay. q ki wo mujhay vote deta hay”.

    19 hours ago · 
  • Nur Momad I think the analysis about Al-Qaeeda being “near to die” is too simplistic. I am also a moderate Muslim, but that’s beyond the point.”Extremists label every moderate Muslim …..”, again a generalization.Let’s not get into the “I am good” “they/you are not” type of debate :-)

    I don’t think we have much left here to discuss.

    To sum up the discussion;


    Start -

    Based on discussions on the OEC General Discussion, a facebook forum, we adopt the following resolution.

    We agree that NATO’s strike on Pakistan Troops is unacceptable and must be condemned.

    We condemn the actions of all countries/governments/state organizations, including Pakistan, that result in destabilization of fragile nations, for political or other gains.

    We condemn the actions of governments/state organizations/groups that jeopardize the lives and integrity of innocent citizens of the global community.

    We agree that fundamentalism (state sponsored or otherwise) is a major issue that needs to be dealt, by the state of Pakistan, as well as the society.

    We suggest that short-term and long-term actions by the state can help curb the menace of militancy which is an existential threat for the state.

    We conclude that dialogue shall continue at all levels.

    —–End

    Like if you agree :D

     

  • Ali Taj Tripple Liked:)

    18 hours ago · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran: I don’t know whether I should go ahead anymore since we have now arrived at a point where you asking me for proofs of 9/11.
    The attacks on twin towers were carried out by Al-Qaida, by several Arab men, masterminded and accepted by OBL and his mureeds. As governed by Occam’s razor or parsimony, the “burden of proof” lies with the one who rejects the conventional understanding of a certain idea in favor of an alternative explanation. I am not the spokesperson of White House so I don’t consider myself responsible to answer the questions which you should ask the US govt. I don’t approve of war on Iraq. Nevertheless, I believe the Taliban regime of Afghanistan needed to be toppled. And it was toppled. It is a sad day to find out that you too are one of those people who use this non-sense word “liberal-extremist”, sooner i expect to see you using “liberal-fascist” too. You are trying to look at things through a black & white lens. Nobody is all-good or all-bad, except for the Pakistani military establishment, which is all-bad.

    18 hours ago · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha I don’t really mean the last 9 words of my post. They are there just for fun. :) thought to tell you before I am launched at another long press statement GHQ

    18 hours ago · 
  • Irshad Malik til pak army z awake nothing vl happen don,t worry….

    8 hours ago · 
  • Jibran Hayat My appeal to both of my respected seniors that ,every time in arguments I am labelled as if I am a supporter of Fascist ,extremist , Al Qaeda. I would clear my stance again ”NOT AT ALL” 1)coming to the light note by Nur Momad , are we left with only Imperial camp and Al Qaeda only, isnt that simplistic , we do have choice being in the socialist camp too and there can be others . secondly Implying that i support the al qeada camp is kind of Naivety. ..2)the debate is not about the Political issues of GB and rights we have , i thought we were rather discussing on International scale. a bit irrelevant to be discussed while discussing ”War on terror” and sovereignty of Pakistan Nur bhai you have quoted Kaira is he not worth of being quoted here, we know what kind of politician we have . I do not give any weight to his words apart from it is completely a different issue to discussed should not be mixed here. ….Now coming to resolution I do not oppose any point , it is extremely Idealist kind of it ,i would say very much utopian . Because practically these things doesn’t get exercised. … ” We condemn the actions of all countries/governments/state organizations, including Pakistan, that result in destabilization of fragile nations, for political or other gains. ” If i state something from Pakistan reference you would simply call my statements identical of establishment . Because you always blame Pakistan Sajid I. Barcha, I would start with your Dear Usa. Soil of Afghanistan is being used against Pakistan territory if you remember the Lower Dir and Chitral incidents, if you remember Vietnam war , if you remember Haiti ,cuba, Supporting Iraq against Iran. Supporting Israel against Palestine and Iran specifically. supporting Taiwan against China. i will reiterate the Champion of Democracy USA also plays a double game , the way you blame Pakistan establishment. … ..”We condemn the actions of governments/state organizations/groups that jeopardize the lives and integrity of innocent citizens of the global community.
    ” how much innocent Civilian being suffered by USA invasions let just aside Afghanistan , Vietnam , Iraq, Libya in early Eighties, their economy is based on exporting wars. … i agree that Taliban regime must have been toppled by not they way usa had done by bombing the civilians , We just needed to just the regime , the native afghans who were against the taliban regime iterated that let us do in our way not by mere bombing , its nothing but showing muscles of Usa ……. liberal extremism does exit so as extreme conservativeness, if you think only latter part exist then i wonder how is clash of Ignorances is possible , we need and opposite end for clash of ignorances… now coming to liberals and secular of west and Pakistan and security establishment , We are the same liberals and secularists who armed the innocent and simple minded tribel against soviet , invited them to white house praising them against so called evil russia at that time . Who manoeuvred them we the moderate , we the liberals ,we the secularist . Now behave with them as clients. we radicalised them. Now its our duty to get them in mainstream society. And we cannot afford to dis own them immediately it should be done gradually, for instance if Pakistan do not keep contact with them , they will be used by many international players for their own leverage , Pakistan right not do not have any choice but to live with them.

    8 hours ago · 

     

     

  • Sajid I. Barcha Jibran Hayat: Interesting comment there, and expected one, about my “dear usa”. I don’t know why you are pointing to misdoings of USA as if that justifies misdoings of Pakistan. Let me tell you, it doesn’t. Two wrongs do not make one right. The difference I see here is that you are intent on pointing out what mistakes “others” have done and I am intent on pointing out what mistakes “we” have done. I may be wrong but let me guarantee you, it’s easy to change ourselves than it is to others. USA is a super power and there never has been a time in history of mankind when superpower of the time hasn’t tried to intervene here and there to keep a supremacy, it is an inevitable fact that has prevailed and will prevail, and in those conditions you need good diplomacy to protect your interests, not dirty games. When I say Pakistani establishment I talk about the ruling BMW riders with shiny pips on their shoulders, when I talk of Pakistani army I am not referring to poor soldiers or even lower order commissioned officers but to the top brass who do the decision making. We have initiated 4 wars in our short history of 60 years, and lost all 4 of them. Along with loosing half the country, thousands of lives, and a your most prized asset the “honor”. I blame the establishment for being “foolish”. I blame them because they have money to build a new missile everyday, but not to build a hospital for the ill. I blame them because what atrocities they committed in Bangladesh and what resulted from it has taught them no lesson and they are repeating the same mistakes now in Baluchistan. I also blame them for systematically producing a brain-dead conformist & emotionally unstable generation using mili naghmas and sentiments. I blame them for not one thing but a series of things they have done to this country ever since the ’60′s. It was them, who signed an agreement of loyalty with the US. It was them who Islamized this country. It was them who radicalized the youth. It was them who harbored, petted, and produced the “strategic assets” to use them in other places. Wake up from your denial and apologetic, enough of the I-am-the-victim role, because you are the culprit. You apparently don’t even know what liberal or secular means and you definitely are not sure of history too, since you blame the “maneuvering” of the otherwise “innocent & naive” Taliban (yeah right), i don’t know how did you manage to make such a factually inaccurate claim and put them blame on “secular” & “liberal” when they were actually created by Zia using Reagan’s money and Saudi’s petrol dollars. Neither Zia, nor Reagan (a conservative like you), and nor Saudi is anything close to liberal or secular. All of them were anti liberal, and very conservative just like you, not “liberal” and “secular” like me. I am appalled by this “mainstream” the militants argument, this is invitation to mayhem. The militants have set their sights on toppling the state, they have killed more than 24 soldiers so far, they stand against human values of freedom of speech, expression, and even thought. They are in stone age and I am afraid if you mainstream them, you will have to comply by their rules because by that time they will have a “proven” effective weapon to impose whatever they want, they weapon of violence. I want to stop now but I think Jibran, and likewise Ali Taj, you may have a case of Stockholm Syndrome there.

    about an hour ago · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Irshad Malik: The interesting thing is that, Pakistan army is not awake. According to ISPR, the 24 soldiers were sleeping when NATO attacked their check post for 5 hours, and where our Mard e Momins of Air Force were is anybody’s guess. They probably didn’t have fuel for their second hand American jets, the 1980 models.
    However, WHY were our soldiers SLEEPING on such a porous and insecure border instead of doing their duty of being on the looking out is a question nobody asks, because in this country you are not allowed to ask anything of the army, they are like God here, their word is as pure and true as the word in Quran. You can’t question. If you say that the soldiers were not supposed to be asleep on a border they were supposed to be protecting, well then you are a traitor and anybody else who puts a lid on his curious mind and believes in whatever the bull shit they spur in media, well then he is the patriot.

  • Nur Momad ?Jibran Hayat - It was supposed to be on a “lighter note”, which means just a joke :-) But by the way, you were the first to call us in the “Imperial camp” :-) Nevertheless, for me, the debate is over.

    about an hour ago · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, you are the first to be labelled on side of Fascist and extremist camp. I never mean to offend , just was stating my point …just hold on while

    about an hour ago · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Sajid I. Barcha, since you are not in mode of debate so I wont be , debating further for your response , apart from it i want say few things which are other then this debate . Your calling me naive about history , confused about history , and your are calling me conservative , I think you have been extremely judgemental . Which shouldnot be a case because every one of us was stating what they think about the situation. I may having lack of leap hole in views but this does not mean to go personal . The funniest thing is to show your hyperboles , that syndrome you referred to us. we must refrain from intellectual vanity and superiority complex. I see nothing but frustration in your arguments. I think you should have tolerated my views rather been so offensive ,… what ever have posted here , I think we all know what happened in our history. according to you are secular and liberal , being conservative or liberal mean being in Extreme Ends . I am moderate. see if you cannot tolerate my debate how came you think of resolving issues with extremist and fascist. Learn to tolerate people rather then labelling us with psychological hyperboles. Infect such offensive attitude is extremism indeed , extremism doesn’t only mean to use violence . Any how i really enjoyed having debate with just want to end from my side with a quotation ..No honor is like knowledge, no believe is like modesty and patience ,no attainment is like humility ,no power is like forbearance and no support is more reliable then consultation. Imam Ali a.s

    51 minutes ago · 
  • Jibran Hayat ?Nur Momad, I had always deeply respected you and will continue to respect you as an informed senior , i learned a lot from your discussion no personal grudges. peace and happiness

    49 minutes ago · 
  • Sajid I. Barcha ?Jibran Hayat: I apologize if what I said appeared personal. Often I try not to go personal but I won’t say I don’t get carried away. May be somewhere I got carried away and for that I apologize. But nevertheless I still think that I too was called “liberal extremist” earlier and then later in this post there is an implication again. I didn’t take it personal, and I never thought that if I call you conservative you’d take it personal. I pointed out why I think your particular opinion was out of place with historical realities, I gave you factual reasons to your earlier opinion in which you blame liberals for making Taliban. I just pointed to a fact in history that it wasn’t the liberals, it was the conservatives. Anyway, I am not frustrated, this debate is probably one of the simpler debates and I do arguing like its my day job. Never mind, may be I am really too judgmental, extremist liberal, suffering superiority complex, intellectually arrogant, but we all make judgments often just like how you did in pointing out to me what I actually am. It is again a natural bias that’s in us that it is easy to justify ourselves and hard to accept others’ justifications of themselves. Let’s put this thread to rest.

    32 minutes ago · 
  • Imtiaz Ali Well! people pick one word or sentence and base their entire claim, content and conclusion on it. Soldiers were sleeping dint mean that all of them were sleeping living their lives at mercy of any intruder. I guess none of them ws so dumb to do so. The usual practice on any post this that some soldiers do watch-dogging whereas others sleep. It is a simple concern for all citizens of Pakistan that an intrusion has occur, and we have lost 2 dozens of lives at hands of those for whom we are in terror fyt which has now become ours. Thats wot matters, But, our INTELLECTUAL are very keen to confuse everything by trying to cook up an argument based on their set ideologies and against whom they have hatred. Problem with those intellectuals is that In a try to sell out their brand of analysis they give more importance to their stance and less to human lives.
|OEC| General Discussion :
 
 
 
 
  •  

     
    Dear frnds need some points in favour of “Media Awam ko ghumrah kar raha ha” for the debate compitition…plz
    · · · 9 hours ago

    • Rida Urooj likes this.
      •  
        Abid Karim Tashi I dont agree with it, the reality is that Media is now the eyes and the tongue of Awwam,the truth is ” media Zardari ko gumrah kar raha hai” :P
        Memo-gate scandal is an example

        9 hours ago ·
      •  
        Cy MaYeah ofcourse there are positive aspects too but as i mentioned above i need it for debate compitition n i m asked to favour this topics.

        9 hours ago ·
      •  
        Rida Uroojshare the negativism of media; exageration of small issues.

      •  
        Abid Karim Tashi ?Cy Mayou can take the cultural point of view, like the youth that is diverting from their ancestral culture to western and Bollywood culture.. this is the negative aspect of media.. the entertainment side though.

      • Ali Taj?-Sensationalism,yellow journalism, n hysterias can misled awam

      •  
        Badar MuneerOur life is influenced by media in one way or other way. It has affected our life style, socialization and living patterns tremendously. Many of the times media dictates our actions. We generally spent a lot of time in front of television, reading a magazine, news paper or journal, or on the internet, it has profound effect on our ability to adapt to what we see and hear. It is negatively changing the structure of our family lives as is evident that growing number of family members are addicting towards computers and loosing human interactions. Media particularly in Pakistan, promotes violence which has make us sick mentally. It’s showing pictures of gloomy nation all the time as breaking news. Media has changed our cultural values and social behavior. Similarly there are problems of privacy and many cases have occurred in Pakistan

      •  
        Afsar JanPartly true. Media likes to make up stories. It actually exaggerates the news. And the thing is, media likes to be the first to broadcast a bad news. There’s a big competition going between the tv channels and they try to make their news more attractive by adding trivial and intriguing comments.

      •  
        Hajat Chand Hunzaisimple sukoon aur mental peace nhi milta..point

      •  
        Nasir Karim MusafirNO! Rather un-educated public is lost in the media.

      •  
        Hajat Chand Hunzai and educated lost in news….
        no work only boosting up listening skills for doom’s day…
        tell educated ppl to get out and work.. .. :\

        about an hour ago ·
      •  
        Nur Momad Some points that may be useful to support this notion;

        1. Corporatism in news and views
        2. Politicization of media
        3. Ratings-oriented content development
        4. Lack of creativity (Bollywood inspired “news-making”, with sad sounds and grief-struck voices narrating ordeals, instead of offering solutions in a more objectives manner. Ideally, the journalist should not become part of the news).
        5. Conclusion-less discussions (showing lack of expertise among the anchors)

      •  
        Liaqat Karim ?1. Alteration of cultures
        2. ppl and their fantasy world ( dramas,)
        3. exaggeration (making a mountain out of a mole hill )
        4. Misguidance ( public is always tilted towards the anchor., an anchor can alter a hero into a zero ! )
        5. wastage of time and money ( films , dramas)
        6. miss use of media for personal interest ( politicians etc)

        media has many positive aspects but these may be the few negative aspects =)

      •  
        Nur Momad You may also like to read Noam Chomsky’s book, “manufacturing consent”, to see how the media in industrialized world has been used to mislead nations on more than one occasion.

        The Iraq War is one instance when the big media outlets made the public believe that there were “WMDs” in Iraq and it was vital to attack Iraq, to get the WMDs.

        NYTIMES later apologized, saying that they had been “fed” wrong information.

        http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/capsules/pdf_articles/manufacturing_consent.pdf

      •  
        Liaqat Karim ?Cy Mathis example of iraq war wd help u proof ur ideas :) nice example !!

      •  
        Nur Momad http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/international/middleeast/26FTE_NOTE.html?pagewanted=all

        This article, very carefully worded, is considered to be a case-study on recognition of bad-journalism or agenda-driven journalism

        www.nytimes.com

        The Times has reviewed its coverage of the decisions that led the United States …into the war in Iraq, and especially the issue of Iraq’s weapons.See more